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Hi Dan,
I was really intrigued by your Salamanders 1750 point list and how it works, I’ve been looking for a nice competitive list at the 1750 point level because I’m tired of spending money on mistakes…my first and most glaring was a 2k point Deathwing army.
I was interested in maybe adopting this list because I like the idea of a close range shooting army with a fast delivery system on top of putting that crucial sliver of psychological doubt in the opponent in the second turn. I also have always loved the lore of the Salamanders and so before I saw this list I knew I wanted to use Vulkan for a new project in some way already.
My question is how do you use the Vindicators when the rest of the army is engaging in close range actions, isn’t there risk of wandering template syndrome? Or do you use them as out flankers to take care of isolated units?
Additionally, do you include Vulkan in one of the drop pods to ensure he comes in on the first turn? And if so do you worry about him getting destroyed with the tac squads?
Any info on this would be great!
Thanks
Thanks for taking an interest in my Salamanders list. I’ll try and provide as much guidance as I can.
There are generally two distinct ways of incorporating pods into your army: (1) taking many pods in a pure traditional Drop Pod Assault force, and (2) taking a few (between one and three) pods to complement the rest of your army.
At 1750, a pure Drop Pod army is a middle-of-the-road build, competitively-speaking. With the high cost of Vulkan it can be difficult to shoehorn him into a pod list while simultaneously taking advantage of his army-wide special rules; you just can’t fit in enough Dreadnoughts while maintaining an adequate Troop presence and still have Land Speeders in the mix. This difficulty subsides at higher point levels, namely 2000 and 2500. See here for an excellent example of how the list shines at 2500 points: http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/03/vulkan-drop-ard-boyz-approved.html.
Rather than taking everything in Drop Pods, one can also elect to use podding units as support for the rest of the army. This is usually a terrible idea. I’ve seen many lists include one or two units in pods, usually Dreadnoughts. They always drop down, shoot a meltagun, and then get immediately blown to smithereens. Unsupported units are inevitably failures unless they’re cheap and reliable suicide squads. 90 points for Company Command Squad with 4 twin-linked (via orders) meltaguns fits that bill. 140 points for a Dreadnought with 1 meltagun does not.
That being said, my army operates along the lines of option 2, but relies heavily on the units that Vulkan’s force multiplier benefits the most: MM/HF Land Speeders and TH/SS Terminators. My units all act synergistically within the framework of a well-developed strategy. If you choose a hybrid Drop Pod force be sure that you don’t fall into the trap of throwing expensive units into the jaws of the enemy without support.
Regarding the Vindicators, these units aren’t optimal by any means, but they serve a psychological role. Most players are intimidated by S10 AP2 templates because even though their probability of damage is low, their capacity for damage is extremely high. One of their best uses is to silently funnel enemy units into certain parts of the battlefield. I find this works best in Capture & Control missions. I always place my objective as far as possible from the enemy’s (completely opposite corner is best). At some point, the other guy has to decide whether or not to dedicate his units to defending his objective, which is where I’m dropping every unit I have (except 1 unit of Troops). The Vindicators sit back on my objective, out of range of his army. A unit in a Rhino can either choose (A) to support the rest of the army against mine or (B) move helplessly into Vindicator range. Opponents almost always make the mistake of choosing (A) even though the likelihood that my Vindicators will both destroy his smoked Rhino AND the occupants before he gets close is very low. This doesn’t work the same with Predators, even though they’re superior tanks.
Additionally, there are times when I go on the offensive with my Vindicators. I’ll fire them danger close when necessary as long as I have cover, especially when the payoff has the potential to be high. Every once in a while an opponent won’t be able to prevent offering you that perfect shot–if you hit sometimes the game can end right then and there. And having S10 keeps Space Wolves honest.
Regarding Vulkan, I almost always bring him down on the first turn, particularly if there is some vulnerable flamer bait deployed on the board (Lootas, Heavy Weapon Teams, etc.). The function of the marine squads in this list is to protect the pods and survive long enough so that the Land Speeders and Terminators can use precision deep striking (via beacons) to save the day. Vulkan soaks up a shot from every salvo fired at his unit because of his amazing 2+/3+ save. I cannot tell you how often people underestimate how difficult it is to kill a basic Tactical Squad. It happens more often than not that my combat squads end up with a single surviving member, which is enough to capture an objective and fire melta shots into tanks.
-Dan
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In regards to suicide units whats your take on the 125 BA double melta 5 man assault squad. With re-rolls to reserves and a 1D6 scatter it will be there early most likely and be where you want it and has the added benefit that if it survives it is a scoring unit.
As for the drop pod list one thing to keep in mind is that a lot of people these days, especially in competitive circles, know how to counter it. Giving the drop pod list first turn and reserving your army can neuter the list hardcore, especially with any sort of mobile army. Also the prevalence of the inquisitor + mystics in most guard armies and some marine variants means you can easily draw some bad match ups. I just mention this because you say you are looking for something competitive and I feel the general consensus is that drop pod lists really arent.
That being said having played against danny’s army I know if can be powerful in the right hands (especially getting matched against him in game 2 of round 1 ard boyz 2 years ago with my nids grumble grumble)
Vulkan is hte training wheels for Space Marines.
G
thats quite the helpful and constructive post there G
You don’t post enough. Well, speaking for probably everyone but Greenblowfly, but okay, that’s out of the way.
Good article. I like how you’re not trying to oversell Vindicators: your analysis is spot-on, I think. I did have a ‘Doh!’ moment reading this…
I’ve never been a fan of the Dreadnought drop, for the reasons you mentioned, but it didn’t occur to me to spell out the reasons why it doesn’t work. I mean, I didn’t have to – my opponents were using them, not I. That said, replacing the Dread with something meaty does seem like a much better alternative.
As a suggestion, I’ve not actually faced Psychic Battle Squads yet (yea, I know) but that will change soon, since Evil Homer is building up to it now. Evidently you stopped by Black Matt’s place, beat him up, trashed his basement, and played a game or two – so I know you use them.
Tactica, use of and defending against?
Just a thought.
Brent
Brent, I’ll try and address the PBS issue in another post. I definitely want to post more–finding the time is difficult, unfortunately. I’ve got a lot of half-written articles on the back-burner. My writing style, though thorough, has the unhappy consequence of being extremely time-consuming.
@Kris
I think the BA suicide squad is as bad as a suiciding dreadnought, but it’s not spectacular either. The low scatter is compensated for by the fact that you need to strike in very close in order to make optimal use of the melta’s 2D6 penetration. S8+1D6 isn’t shabby either, but you know how much it sucks to miss both of those meltas, and how annoyingly frequent it can be.
Personally, I believe the fast Razorback is a far better delivery system for such squads than attempting to DS – especially with the option of NOT doing so as a bonus.
I tend to agree with Danny that at lower points levels the Drop Pod list has recieved a pretty hard hit with the nerf bat in 5th edition in lower points battles. I prefer to run mine at 2000 minimum. I run an all pod list with maxed out Dreads and Vulkan. Vulkan is the Speacial weapon multiplyer that drop pod lists sorely lack in 5th. I wish tac squads were allowed to replace there heavy weapon for a second special if going in a pod. Sadly this isnt the case and Vulkan addresses this well.
Dreads form the nucleus of my alpha strike and enmass do a great job of it. However im not a fan of the 1-2 drop dread list.. like danny says these dont make the best suicide squads.
Drop lists have a tendancy to become pretty immobile after they land. so this is why im considering running a list like: http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/03/vulkan-drop-ard-boyz-approved.html
For me it swaps out the ironclads for basic dreads and adds the mobility of the speeder. its a good idea in theory. I plan on testing it out. (DANNY WE NEED TO START TESTING 2500)
yeah I figured as much. I generally wouldnt take suicide units either but I’ve just been brainstorming BA lists trying to find something I’m happy with for ard boyz. Which isnt working out very well
Definitely agree that we need to start practicing for ‘Ard Boyz. All of the effort we put in last year paid off considering just about everyone from our club made it through the first round! I think I’ve settled on a list for the tournament, but that’s for another post. It’s nothing over the top because I want to keep new purchases to a minimum, but it’s not going to be an easy nut to crack for anyone.