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The question of whether or not Orks are a “top tier” army has been the subject of some debate amongst 40k players on the internet lately, particularly on Dakka (view the current thread here). The thread mostly consists of poster Frank Fugger offering an insightful analysis of the army while fighting off a horde of nerd-raging knuckle-draggers. There are a few exceptions however (Primarch and Mahu, most notably).
At the risk of coming late to the dead horse beatdown, I’ll throw in my two cents since both sides aren’t really debating the viability of Orks, but the competitive nature of 40k armies and the tournament scene. It should also be be noted that Stelek has chimed in on the issue, and in fact has been asserting that Orks are one of the least competitive armies in 5th edition 40k for quite some time (view article here). More recently, he has commented on the same Dakka thread, posting highlights of the conversation (link).
The release of the Ork codex represented a significant shift in game design from previous army releases in late 4th edition, most notably Chaos Space Marines. Prior to the Ork codex release, it was mostly trash with the exception of a few very specific builds that relied on favorable rock-paper-scissor matchmaking to perform well in a competitive setting. Afterwards, they managed to catch up with codex creep and perform on a level above pretty much everyone else.
It’s easy to point to Grand Tournament results and claim that Orks represent the best all-around army in Warhammer 40k, but is this a valid set of data on which to base such a conclusion? Orks dominated early on because they were suddenly made viable and operated completely outside of the 4th edition meta-game. They continue to be a dominant force mostly because people have been slow to adjust to 5th edition.
Ask yourself, what are the armies that tend to dominate Orks? The answer in every case will be those armies which take full advantage of the changes between editions (Vulkan marines, Immolator spam, mech IG, and so on).
Orks do indeed dominate 4th edition armies in the 5th edition ruleset, but does that make them competitive? Well, that obviously depends on your definition of competitive, and it raises a number of more important questions about the Warhammer 40k meta-game. Theoretically, if 99 people bring crappy lists to a tournament and 1 person brings a slightly less crappy list and wins with it, does that make that list competitive? Relatively speaking, yes. But compared to good lists, it’s still garbage.
That’s more or less the status of Orks in 40k.
Now, I don’t feel as strongly as Stelek that Orks are a crap army. I simply believe they are a straightforward, mediocre army with an very mild learning curve. Without a favorable ruling on deffrollas affecting vehicles, they struggle badly against Land Raiders due to their lack of meltaguns. Sure, Nob bikers and a Warboss can take it down eventually with 6’s to hit, but they get slaughtered by the combination of massed firepower and Assault Terminators that get thrown at them on the following turn. And that’s if they DO kill it. If they don’t, then the opposing player gets to cut out the heart of the Ork force unscathed. Game over.
But AV14 isn’t the only weakness in the Ork codex. Mechanized armies are difficult for Orks to cope with in general because of their heavy reliance on CC to crack armor. This has been mitigated somewhat in a recent shift in Ork list building towards Battlewagon spam with boarding planks, now that people have figured out how to beat Nobs on bikes (I still have trouble with Charlie’s army, but I chalk that up to him being a good player). Furthermore, while Orks can go mech, their big weakness is that they need to disembark to do anything, which breaks the #1 rule of mounting up: STAY IN THE TANK. Orks units need to expose themselves to be of much use, a weakness that is easily exploited by players who know how to sacrifice units, tank shock, and use flamers.
In closing, I’ll end with a quote from the Dakka thread that I think sums up Orks nicely:
Frank Fugger: I’m fairly confident that I could take an Ork list to a tournament and do well having never moved a Git in my life before, provided the opposition I face remains the same gaggle of footslogging Storm Troopers and Drop Pod Dreadding nuggets that currently attend GTs.
Primarch: Contain your answer to just the current tournament scene, the one you think is not very competitive at all. In that box, if there was an army that took very little effort to win with, consistently scored high, higher than any other army, then couldn’t you reach the conclusion that in fact, the Orks are the most competitive army running right now?
Frank Fugger: I’d agree with that. Thing is, though, if people actually started playing for keeps at tourneys the Orks would rapidly disappear from the placings, because they rely on simplicity, ease of use and weak opposition to be competetive. Hard lists rely on their own units being able to deal with anything in order to win games; the Orks rely on the opponent being unable to deal with their units to win games.
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Could there be another way to play Orks out there that hasn’t risen to the surface? My guess is that there are three factors for success. The codex, the list, and the player. Make one of them weak and it can sink the ship.
For instance, you are a pretty good player if I have understood it correctly, but your friend Charlie seems to stand up to you well with his Ork army. Have you guys tried swapping armies and then play a few games? I think that would be a very interesting experiment as you would only switch one of out of three factors, the player. After all, I am sure that both of you could beat any list I throw at you with a weak Ork list because of experience playing the game.
The thing with charlie is he was using a double nob biker list before people really know how to handle them. At this point nob bikers really arent what they were as we fully expect them and know how to beat them. Also against a drop pod army they have the advantage of mobility vs a relatively static army. Not to knock charlie as I too feel he is a really good player, but the army list he brought isnt as strong as it once was.
Note that Orks also have great difficulty against the contents of the Land Raider (ie, TH/SS Termies), against Seer Councils, MechDar, the terrifying number of Templates and Blasts that Mech WH and IG throw out, they are totally annihilated by AirCav…even Necrons have a decent shot against Mech Orks, due to their vastly reduced numbers, and speed being their only asset, nah, saving grace.
Orks aren’t BAD, and, as fluffy Codexes go, are nearly perfect, but they aren’t GOOD either. Playing Orks against a good 5th Ed Codex is like trying to win the 100 metres without shoes. It’s not impossible, but you’d have to be significantly better than the opponents to achieve it regularly.
I think you hit the head more accurately on the head than anyone else. People have been slow to adapt to 5th edition. Granted there are some subtle rule changes to the ork codex that have made them less effective against AV14, like the change in Burna penatration, and Zapp gun auto-hits, but it’s more than made up for in other things. I think most people cry because they still hate having lost those damn overpowered Choppa rules.
People aren’t flexible when it comes to certain armies, Orks should have a Warboss, go WAAAGGH and chop stuff, it’s orky. But really, an ork list with a Shokk attack gun or two can definitely take out a LandRaider, not to mention the woefully underused wrecking ball. A str9 hit that hits on a 4+ ignoring how fast the LR went, sounds like a good deal to me, especially on cheap trukks that are likely to die anyhow. Beat that by using 3 trucks with wrecking balls to cover hatches and you just neutralized approx 500 pts worth of LR and termies with less than 150 pts worth of fast transport.
Once you get a few players moving away from the uber units with orks, I think you’ll see they’ll still be near the top.
@Flekkzo
As Kris mentioned, the reason why Charlie’s list holds its own against mine so well is because I use drop pods. I imagine most typical Vulkan armies running Rhinos and a Land Raider would turn the table on him pretty fast, between the AV14 and the Terminators with a virtually guaranteed charge.
I think one thing a lot of folks over this whole debate are forgeting is that while tactics, list and strategy are all important luck also plays a huge roll in this game we play as well. Potentially a lone guardsmen could shoot at a terminator and by good luck in the player controlling the guardsmen and crap luck on the part of the terminators player that guardsmen could kill the terminator. the odds of doing so are slim but possible. I am sure there are folks around the net who could put it into math and give us a definitive number on what the odds of such and such would have and against whatsit but there will always be a chance . one and twos do happen.
I’m not sure if this has already been discussed, but it seems like the best thing in the Ork armories are the vehicle upgrades. Specifically, the Grabbin Claw negates the ability of those AV 14 vehicles to not get hit by your PK, and the Boarding plank lets the Nob swing without disembarking. Wrecking balls, as mentioned, seem strong as well.
I posted a big reply to some of the comments. :)
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/understandin-orks.html
I’d like to take credit for bringing this discussion to the forefront of dakka in the first place. Danny, you remember the list I brought to ‘Ard boyz, right? Battlewagon Orks. Even without the mistakes I made, I don’t think it really stands a chance against a well-rounded opponent-list. And I think wagon-orks are probably the most balanced, competitive list orks can bring. I’m not sure wagon-orks need to disembark to be effective, though. Burnas, shootaboyz, the aformentioned boarding planks, and when stationary, lootas and vehicle mounted weapons aren’t terrible.
I agree that Orks can do a lot of damage without disembarking, but at some point they need to eliminate Troops, and, short of Burnas in a wagon, they can’t do that without getting into close combat. Ultimately they will need to expose themselves since their shooting and other tricks aren’t reliable and/or don’t put out enough shots/attacks.
Orks also suffer from FoC saturation – by this I mean that all of their good choices compete for the same, limited, slots. Burnas vs Nobs, vs Lootas vs Kommandos for Elites, for example, and ANY choice in the Heavy Support section (okay, except Flash Gitz) is playable in multiples.
This is one of the key contributing factors in making the Codex unbalanced. Sure, Warbosses grant the option to move 2 Nobs units to Troops, but these then become so prohibitively expensive that taking all the other toys you want is ridiculously difficult.
SM, IG, Chaos even, don’t suffer from this (Eldar do….but to a much lesser extent) Chaos have the exact opposite problem, where all their good options are Troops, or no-brainers – nobody rates Predators more than Oblits.
Danny, kind of OT, but have you gotten your email from GW? Brian at the store said that he was waiting for them to call before he sent over the ‘ardboyz info but I haven’t heard from GW at all. He’s kind of a lazy ass so I don’t know what’s going on there.
Also, bit surprised by your take on frank fugger. Seems like a one-note shitposting troll with almost nothing to say… but it could be me. I tend to be biased against 50,000 word posts that can be condensed to 3 lines.
Zach, I haven’t gotten anything from GW and to my knowledge Kris hasn’t either. Unfortunately, I can’t make it to the second round because I’ll be on vacation, so I haven’t pursued it. I believe the only store in the area hosting it is Brothers Grim in Selden, NY (Long Island), which is where our club normally attends tournaments. I heard they are reserving spots so I would give them a call.
As for Frank, I don’t agree 100% on everything he says, but I do think he’s right on the money with most of what he’s saying about Orks. I don’t think they’re bad, and I certainly think they’re fun (I seriously considered starting an army myself a while back), but they suffer from some fundamental weaknesses inherent in the codex that can’t really be circumvented adequately.
Yeah I havent heard anything either. Are we supposed to get emails? I thought we just showed up with our stinkin certificate?
Call up the shop and bitch to brian. He didn’t even give me a certificate – he’s probably just being a lazy ass.
Also I think you played your dreadnought wrong, dan. You shoot the closest unit, not the one your dread is facing. If fire frenzy were that easy to abuse with chaos dreads then more people would be taking them.
The way the dread works is a big point of contention Zach. Some people take that walkers can pivot when they fire to mean that the chaos dread will pivot to fire at the closest target, although there is no rule to support it having to do so. Then some people believe its the closest unit in its fire arc which for its weapons is 45 degrees in its front arc. We generally play it the second way.
@Kris, technically, it’s not even allowed to pivot the gun before determining LOS. Stupid, sure, but that’s EXACTLY what the rule says. http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=41199 – Check it. :)
Sorry for going off topic, but I made my view on Orks clear, AFAIK.
With regard to the Dreadnought, there is a big difference between what it can shoot at normally and what is within its line of sight.
The rules say that it must pivot on the spot to the nearest visible unit, so what is visible must be assessed before turning. In order to determine if a unit is visible you refer to the model’s line of sight. The rules for vehicles and line of sight are explicit in that they are traced from the mounting down the barrel of the weapon. Weapons on a Dreadnought are fixed and therefore only have a 45 degree sight arc. If a model is outside of that arc it is not visible to the Dreadnought and therefore it is not an eligible target for Fire Frenzy.
I didn’t really care during the game, but I think you’re confusing what’s in the dreadnought’s line of sight with what’s in it’s firing arc.
I see nothing about a “45 sight arc”. The guns have a 45 degree *swivel* arc (and a mobile dread has a 360 swivel arc for its torso) but as far as I can tell, all models have a 360 sight arc. There are no rules to support the idea that the 45 degree swivel arc on the guns somehow equates with a 45 degree line of sight arc for a non-pivoting dread.
By “visible”, the chaos book refers to models not being fully obscured by terrain. It’s not like the dreadnought “forgets” that there’s closer dudes to spaz out on behind him or something. Maybe we should just post this on dakka?
Vehicles do not have 360 degree line of sight, it is still defined by their individual weapons. Refer to the Vehicle Weapons & Line of Sight section on p.58-59 of the rulebook for firing arcs. The diagrams show the “arc of sight” for each weapon type.
“When firing a walker’s weapons, pivot the walker on
the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target
(assume that all weapons mounted on a walker can
swivel 45º, like hull-mounted weapons) and then
measure the range from the weapon itself and line of
sight from the mounting point of the weapon and
along its barrel, as normal for vehicles.”
The rules for a Dreadnought tell you to pivot on the spot so its guns are aimed at the target. You do not get to pick the target because the Fire Frenzy rule overrides normal target selection and tells you exactly how to proceed. Your target must be the closest VISIBLE unit. You therefore determine what units are visible, select the nearest one as your target, then pivot on the spot (as detailed in the Fire Frenzy rule), and fire all weapons twice.
For example, a unit behind the Dreadnought is not visible because it is not within the sight arcs of its weapons (which are 45 degrees, as per the passage above) and therefore cannot be selected as target regardless of how close it is.
Furthermore, this has been discussed at length on Dakka. It ended with some quibbling over the definition of visible. Basically the only way to argue that a Dreadnought can shoot at a unit not within its line of sight is to interpret “visible” to mean “visible to the player” rather than the Dreadnought, which is silly. Also, this interpretation would result in the Dreadnought always shooting itself, which is also silly (and physically impossible).
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/232266.page
EDIT: @Elessar: Just noticed the spam filter grabbed your comment so I manually approved it
I still think you’re wrong. There is no consensus on the thread. To quote Yakface, who has what I believe is the most reasonable summary of options:
There are two ‘logical’ ways to play it, and both require you to break the rules in order to accomplish them.
One is the way you’ve been suggesting, that “visible” means “within line of sight” and that the Fire Frenzy rules allow you to check line of sight out of the normal shooting sequence and you immediately check for the closest unit within line of sight and proceed from there.
It is important to note that this method does break the rules in that you are checking line of sight before selecting a target, something the Fire Frenzy rules do not specifically mention that you are allowed to do.
The second logical way to play it is to assume that you pivot the walker to face the nearest unit in order to check line of sight (since this is the normal method that walkers check line of sight) and then if the nearest unit isn’t “visible” (again assuming this means “within line of sight”) then you’d pivot the walker again to face the next nearest target and check line of sight again until you find the closest unit that is “visible” (within line of sight).
As with the other method, you have to bend some rules and make some assumptions to make it work.
In the end, you should be discussing this issue with your opponent as the rules as written do not give you a clear way to play.
I think the second method is more reasonable, not to mention in character for the model, but I guess I’ll leave it at that.
Sigh.
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/die-horse-die.html
EDIT: Damn, Stelek basically beat me to the punch on all points. His article there sums all this up nicely.
It should be noted that Yakface is completely incorrect in his first part of the assessment. He notes that checking line of sight before selecting a target is breaking the rules. The rules for LOS are quite clear in that you check line of sight BEFORE selecting a target, not after:
Page 16:
“In order to select an enemy
unit as a target, at least one model in the firing unit
must have line of sight to at least one model in the
target unit. If no models have line of sight then a
different target must be chosen.”
No rule is broken and this is indeed the correct way to play it. While Yakface is often correct, he also makes mistakes. It’s important to verify any YMDC assertion that doesn’t come with direct quote from the rules.
With regards to the second (incorrect) way to play it, this is based on a mis-reading of the rules. Codex rules trump rulebook rules, period. The codex tells you to select a visible target. Then you pivot on the spot. Then you fire. If you bring the Walker rules for shooting into the mix then note that they are prefaced with “When firing a walker’s weapons…”. By the time you are firing you are already pivoted to face the target which has already been selected via the Fire Frenzy rules.
Walkers don’t have special line of sight, they have special rules for changing facing during the shooting phase, however this is entirely irrelevant because normal target selection for the Dreadnought is overridden by the Fire Frenzy rule.
Again, the only point of contention is the meaning of the word “visible”. I think it’s pretty obvious that it means “visible to the Dreadnought” and therefore represents line of sight, but it could be read as anything anything that is not invisible, and therefore every unit on the board (hell, even on the board next to yours) is fair game. Clearly, that’s a little silly.
I want to multimelta the guy next to me on table 2 or 3, so I can cripple his army and let me play his crappy ass opponent in the next round.
My Codex says I can. Hurr!
Everyone makes mistakes. I learned since I painted this big target on my chest, to actually know what I was talking about and reference the rules.
It’s funny that the majority of rules issues are always done by people trying to power up their own Codex (Orks) or depower a Codex they think is strong but actually sucks (Chaos).
Very funny indeed. ;)
Thanks Danny. I assume it was the link that did it.
BTW, it was my desire to redeem the Chaos Dreadnought somewhat originally that brought the subject to light on Heresy, and then on Dakka I did it to point out that all those Ork players really aren’t that hot, and that Tankbustas are better than most people think – the rules apply to infantry in the exact way described on page 16 – if no-one in my unit is facing you, you aren’t visible. Doesn’t make them good, just better.
Even if the Chaos Dreadnought is going to target your own units, it’s also possible to move something disposable into a closer position in its line of sight to take the hits. This is especially handy with mounted infantry who can disembark with the majority behind their Rhino and thus benefit from cover saves versus the bolter and multi-melta or lascannon.
@stelek
you seem like to have such a shit personality. I hope you arent as miserable as you come off.
I seem like to have engrish speeking skillz.
Anyways, is another valid reading on the term “visible” to use the main LOS description from the BRB and say that anything that can draw a line to the walker’s eyes is “visible.” Obviously the walker might not have line of sight with it’s weapons.
Is that a valid argument?
No, because Walkers are vehicles, not Infantry.
Therefore, they HAVE to use Vehicle LOS.
Also, many Walkers don’t have eyes. :)
Black Matt: You’re a peach yourself, obviously. My misery grows when I see orktards winning tournaments and calling their army ‘competitive’. Why don’t you guys save all your pennies for the Space Wolves, the next FOTM coming out. They actually are competitive. They might even help you with your complex, Black Matt.
PS Are you actually Black?
I dont understand the ork comment. I dont own orks and I have played chaos since the previous codex was introduced. If my complex involves not wanting to tolerate assholes preach how awesome they are, then I will pass on the therapy.
Don’t understand the Ork comment?
Did you read the original thread/Danny’s comments/Stelek’s blog in the last 6 months?
Actually, I’m preaching how bad you are. Not how awesome I am. If by virtue of your suck, I am ‘awesome’, so be it.
Therapy? Sure, call it the unsuck treatment.
Check your preconceptions or they might check you.
Whoa!
Look, I understand smack talk, but why did someone have to bring race into the equation?
What does the color of someone’s skin have to do with anything?
I have always enjoyed you sarcastic humor Stelek, but can we please leave race out of it? Those of us who are “black” would appreciate it.
@ stelek,
How do you know whether I am good or bad. Ill be bad just for you. Youve proved my point well! Your a miserable asshole!
I forgot to mention how stupid you look now!
This is pretty crap.
Matt, there’s no point in apologising to Danny, then continuing to slabber to Stelek on DANNY’S thread.
Email him, put it on BMBLB, or comment on YTTH if you want, don’t be a pussy, and don’t piss around.
Stelek has plenty of your BatReps and lists to see, so he has more than enough info to base an opinion on. You started on him, also.
Race isn’t an issue here, it was a joke. You may not think it was funny…but a more than cursory examination of Stelek’s blog shows him to be anything but a racist.
Also, Matt, when you’re the one commenting, not him, it doesn’t make him look stupid…
Woah, back the train up. I was merely asking if ‘Black Matt’ was actually black, or another kiddie with a ‘cool’ name. I wasn’t being sarcastic. Putting black in your moniker is bad form in my view, it’s akin to virtual blackface.
Hope that clears that up. :)
no, you still look stupid.
Seriously, the pot is just calling the kettle Black Matt…Drop it, or do it elsewhere.
I rarely leave comments, certainly not on petty fighting, but this is one of those things that drives me nuts. Let me preface my comments by saying that I truly enjoy the blog and generally the discussion that follows. Normally I find this site has very low “dumbass commentitis.”
Having said that let me get to the point… The reason that so many folks pre-approve comments these days is because someone with a grudge, legitimate or not, feels that they should excercise their passive-aggressive belligerence over the interweb. If Black Matt and Stelek (neither or which I know) have actual and real conflict then Black Matt should man up and e-mail or call him directly instead of subjecting all of us this thread.
your right, excuse me.
So anyone here ever play 40k?
It’s got some pretty amusing fluff involving xeno scum, abhumans, and a mentally retarded/idiot savant ethnic group called ‘green skins’ who are dirty violent animals filled with nothing other than a desire to rend enemies apart for fun in a ‘good fight’.
.. oh and it’s got space catholics.
…
…
Does that mean the Traitor forces are protestants?
Yeah I figured that comment would kill it-but good.
HAHAHA! This thread makes me laugh! “Orks are not competitive”? You know, playing against scrubs doesn’t count… Maybe those that think Orks aren’t competitive need to play people who win GT’s, and not brag about trashing n00bs at their LGS. Play against real players! Seriously.
Why do you assume that those AREN’T the people being played? Or that they’re better than their local Ork players? Not everyone can afford to travel the country to games after dropping hundreds on an army.